Meet The Peugeot 308 R

"Kookanoodles" (Kookanoodles) 08/26/2013 at 08:33 • Filed to: Peugeot, 308 R, RCZ R, Frankfurt motor show

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Pictures of the Peugeot 308 R Concept, to be properly unveiled at the Frankfurt motor show, have leaked onto the internets. It is said to have the 1.6 litre 270bhp petrol engine from the RCZ R, with lowered (and most likely stiffened) suspension, bigger wheels, bigger brakes, a Torsen limited slip differential at the front and a 6-speed manual gearbox somewhere else.

This image was lost some time after publication.

This image was lost some time after publication.

What do we think, opponauts ? I think it looks the part, though the two-tone paint job (supposed to be a nod to the Onyx concept car, apparently) does look a bit silly if you ask me. And the front reminds too much of a Seat. Apart from that, I have to say I really hope Peugeot will actually build it.

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PelicanHazard > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 08:36

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I hope it's just the photos making it look weird, but it appears disproportionately huge at the bottom compared to the top.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 08:36

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"1.6 litre 270bhp petrol engine" is this for real? That's incredible power from such a little motor.

Kookanoodles > PelicanHazard 08/26/2013 at 08:37

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Maybe it's that, or maybe they just went a bit too far with the bodykit.

Mikeado > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 08:40

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The engine is already being put in the RCZ-R that's entering production early next year. Direct-Injection + turbo FTW!

Kookanoodles > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 08:40

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Oh you bet it is. That's 170bhp/litre and 330Nm/243lbft of torque at 1900 rpm. And it's not just some numbers Peugeot made up for the concept car, this is the engine you'll get in the RCZ R in the fall.

Mikeado > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 08:44

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It's nice to see them building something that on paper is actually credible as a higher-end hot hatch, but - and I don't normally like people doing this - that nose is quite strongly reminiscent of the new Vauxhall Astra VXR:

I also don't like the two-tone body, but actually overall, it's a pretty handsome and pumped-up hot hatch. It'll be interesting to see how good it is assuming it reaches production.

Kookanoodles > Mikeado 08/26/2013 at 08:48

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I wouldn't be too worried, Peugeot has shown with the 208 GTi that they still know their hot hatches. As for the looks, it'll probably look much tamer if it reaches production. And I agree, the two-tone paint just doesn't work, it looks like an afterthought.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 08:56

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That's friggin awesome.

Mikeado > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 08:56

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TBH I hope it isn't toned down that much. I just couldn't help seeing the similarity with the VXR. The 208 GTi is indeed cause for optimism, but can they successfully scale it up and take on Ford, VW and Renaultsport... again?

Kookanoodles > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 08:59

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Yup, Peugeot/Citroën may not do everything right, but they know their engines.

Nibby > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 09:02

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The front kinda sorta looks like a Tesla.

Kookanoodles > Mikeado 08/26/2013 at 09:06

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We'll see... But they might have their chance, because it's unfortunately very likely that the next Renaultsport Mégane will have the dual-clutch paddle-equiped 'box from the Clio RS 200 (as will, I fear, the new Alpine). So with their sporty cars (the 208 GTi, the RCZ R, and the 308 R if they build it) all fitted with manuals, Peugeot will have a card to play. I'd say their more direct rival in the hot-hatch market is Ford more than Renault right now though. I don't really see any resemblance with the Astra, honestly, I think it looks more like a Golf/Leon hybrid.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 09:10

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Hopefully GM will bring some over here.

GhostZ > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 09:15

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It's about the limit of what you can do without getting into extremely expensive, unreliable, or complex technologies.

Just don't let displacement fool you. Remember, a 1.6l engine at 1 bar (which this thing is probably above) is like a 3.2l engine naturally aspirated. A 1.6l engine that geats peak power at 10,000 is like a 3.2l engine that gets peak power at 5,000. This is completely reasonable. The real impressive part about this is that they designed a production engine that small that can handle 1+bar of boost without blowing up. It just goes to show how much more of an advantage that direct injection is at preventing engine knock. Same reason why Ford can run such a high compression ratio with the turbos on their Ecoboost engines.

F1 engines may have extremely high specific output, but if you multiply the displacement by the number of atmospheres they are being forced to suck in, or how much higher they rev and compare with a Nascar (sprint cup) engine:

2.4 x 19000rpm = 45600
5.8 x 9000rpm = 52220

Assuming they are the same power level, the Nascar engine only needs 14% swept volume per minute to keep up in power output. And don't talk about torque, you can get rear wheel torque from reduction gears.

Now let's take pressure into consideration, with the old F1 and the new F1 engines:

2.4 x 19000rpm x 1 bar (normal atmosphere) = 45600
1.6 x 15000rpm x 2.9 bar (my guess, about 30 psi) = 69600

So if they produce the same HP, the 1.6 is able to pull in much, much more air at peak. This means they'll either produce a lot more power, or are tuned back from what their potential is. Which they are, because of fuel economy requirements coming in next year. They probably limit the fuel system or exhaust system somehow, much like an old 80s US V8, which could produce far more power for its displacement than it actually did.

This has been lessons in engine potential by your friendly neighborhood GhostZ.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > GhostZ 08/26/2013 at 09:21

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That's still an impressive amount of power from a little motor.

Smurfinator > PelicanHazard 08/26/2013 at 09:47

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Hmmm, seems its actually like that. Maybe like the Megane RS 225, or Clio 200. The french arent afraid to go fat on bodykits.

GhostZ > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 09:51

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I guess I'm not phased by it much because I'm used to things like the 350 HP 2.6l RB26ETT in the R32-34 GT-Rs, or the 550 HP 3.8l VR38DETT in the new one. Here's a few numbers of engines that impress me:

1990 GT-R: 2.6 x 2bar x 7000rpm = 36400 / 350 = 80 liters per minute per HP
2008 GT-R: 3.8 x 1.7bar x 6400rpm = / 485 = 85 per HP
Peugeot 308R: 1.6 x 2bar x (?)7500rpm = 24000 / 270 = 88 per HP
1960's Mustang 315 Racecar: 4.7 x 1 x 6000rpm = 28200 / 315 = 89 per HP
Porsche 917 engine: 5.4 x 3.7(!!!) x 7800 = 155844 / 1580 = 98 per HP
Honda S2000: 2 x 1 x 9800 = 19600 / 247 = 79 per HP
EK Type R: 1.6 x 1 x 8200 = 13120 / 185 = 70 per HP
Top fuel Dragracer: 8.2 x 4.5 x 8400 = 309960 / 8000 = 38 per HP (Nitromethane, baby!)

etc. I'll wait to see what the boost levels and peak HP rpm is before I judge. For example, if it does it at 6000 rpm or with only like, 1.7 bar boost, now we're talking some efficiency.

It comes down to the fact that engines like the S2000 and Type R engines have so much less reciprocating mass (including no turbo for exhaust to work against) that they can achieve absurd HP levels out of very little air. That, and alternative fuels (E85, Nitromethane, Methanol) can really boost those numbers.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > GhostZ 08/26/2013 at 09:53

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Well I'm still impressed.

Mikeado > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 10:30

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Speaking strictly about the front, the headlights and all four grilles are the same shape:

The Pug's grilles are a bit bigger and the headlights have a nick taken out of them, but otherwise they're pretty damn similar to me.

Kookanoodles > Mikeado 08/26/2013 at 10:34

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I guess you have a point. But the headlights are bigger on the Astra, and it's got a more bio-design kind of thing going on, the Peugeot is more geometric. I see the similarities, but I don't think anyone would confuse one for the other.

Nicolai Velkovski > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 11:01

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If you people are impressed by that IMMENSE power out of this miniscule motor, well then, think about how it will break it's timing chain kit or drop dead the turbine at about 50-60k km. The regular 1.6 THP 150 hp does it all the time. I just wonder how it wins "Engine of the Year" for 3 consecutive years now.

Kookanoodles > Nicolai Velkovski 08/26/2013 at 11:05

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Maybe it's not as bad as you say ? I don't have any info on that, mind you, but I would imagine they take reliability into account when naming the engine of the year. Or maybe Peugeot-Citroën bribbed the judges. Wait, it can't be that, they don't have any money.

jebiveter > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 12:59

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Actually, Lancia delta S4 managed to squeeze around 500bhp from a 1.8L petrol engine =)

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > jebiveter 08/26/2013 at 13:00

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Rally car not a road car.

jebiveter > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 08/26/2013 at 13:15

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Well, there was a stradale version which was a road car with 250bhp on the same engine. My point being, its not so special, it was being done 20 years ago. I'd rather see a rwd/awd 308. Fwd is very finicky above 200bhp.

foolio > Kookanoodles 08/26/2013 at 17:27

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I think it looks good. I'd drive it.

Forester guy > Mikeado 08/27/2013 at 09:52

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This thing must have an massive turbo right? What about turbo lag?

Mikeado > Forester guy 08/27/2013 at 11:28

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Well, nobody's driven it, so I can't answer that.

Forester guy > Mikeado 08/27/2013 at 13:42

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touché